Comments on Invasion By Technologically Advanced Civilization Reported
A tragic story going on far from your local megaplex. (Read
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|"While there are cases, as this appears to be, (tho I haven't been over there to see for myself how one-sided the story is) where it is wrong, that does not mean that the extrapolation that would produce the Prime Directive is valid. Much of the time, the "natives" are greatly helped by outside influence and access to advanced supplies and equipment. Even when there are obvious negatives, the positive sides, (which are almost never admitted by the media, when they go trumpeting the negatives) tend to far outweigh them. And for the most part, even having been a "survivalist" in an "advanced" country, is _not_ a valid experience on which to base the difficulties that are everyday life in those little villages. Life really _is_ hard and short without access to advanced medical care, or at least training, both of which require quite a few changes of culture for the type of people described here. And, unlike this rare example, the majority of "primitive" peoples gladly welcome outside influence, and do so for the reasons I've just described.
Yeah, I've lived in some of those sorts of places. I spent ~8+ years in third world countries, while my parents did missions work."
(Ashley 7/18/2008 5:29:22 PM)
|"While I can also think of many positives and am an advocate of technology, there are also a lot of disorders and complications that exist in our model society which can make indigenous societies seem more peaceful/ideal. Unless it's completely certain that the universal availability of technology is more important than their culture then I'd have to vote against the influence. Their model society is better for the environment, anyway."
(Russell 7/19/2008 5:05:17 PM)
|""More Peaceful/Ideal?" Hah! That's a common misconception held by those that haven't lived there. Would you say the same about one of the Coal Mining towns here in the USA? (such as in Kentucky) Yet even they are better off than most of those "Noble Savages" that the media likes holding up to our view. The ones that aren't busy fighting, are just barely managing to survive what nature throws at them. Most of them are in marginal situations, where any major weather change, (like a hurricane coming through) would have a high chance of wiping them out. (as nearly happened with several of the groups in Indonesia, back when the earthquake and tsunamis hit a few years ago) The ones that we have been observing, yet trying to hold "Prime Directive" lack-of-relations with, have mostly been dying out... of preventable causes. Most of them are below the minimum safe gene-pool size, so even just improved transportation, linking them to other villages, would greatly improve their life expectancy.
I'm not saying that what we have is "good." I think we have many, major, flaws in our system. But, even with those flaws, it is still significantly more life prolonging, safety generating, and comfort inducing, than what they have. At the least, the option should be offered, instead of the decision made for them, whether or not they will be allowed access to the rewards of "Higher Tech."
And yes, this is why Missionaries can often get in, and be welcomed, when Anthropologists are shunned. The majority of Missionaries provide physical aid, (such as medical service and communications) while the majority of Anthropologists attempt to prevent any learning of outside ways/tech. Those "primitives" are not dumb enough to fall for that very often."
(Ashley 7/20/2008 9:19:40 AM)
|"I'm not from the US. I'm a half-native of Canada. I'm not suggesting we cut them off from technology or knowledge of the outside world but instead let them decide for themselves what they want from outsiders. I've listened to many stories from the elderly here in Turtle Island about the "help" they received and they aren't pleasant. Anyway, there are many different situations and it's up to the indigenous peoples, where ever they are, to decide whether it's a good thing."
(Russell 7/20/2008 3:26:52 PM)
|"And, yes. I've tried ruffing it in the woods and it's not easy but it is satisfying."
(Russell 7/20/2008 3:50:58 PM)
|"Not that I really want to join the debate, but I do have some things to say. I seem to recall seeing something on the news about a group of indigenous fishermen in Indonesia recognizing the signs of a tsunami before anyone else and rowing their boats as far away from the shore as possible while modern fishing boats did the opposite. I also think that they would have been better equipped to deal with the aftermath of natural disasters since they're less reliant on technology."
( 7/20/2008 4:51:24 PM)
|"If you watch the videos, you will see that these people in Golgola are not neolithic people who have never seen other humans before. They wear manufactured clothes like everyone else in India.
The argument is that the jungle provides them with everything that they need in the way of food (vegetables, fruits and meats) and building materials. They also harvest some foods from the forest to trade with other people outside their village to get clothing, tools and jewelry. Maybe even medicines or education; several of the villagers have received a standard education.
The real argument is that the mining company is going to take away their jungle, that supplies them with everything they need, for generation after generation, and 'replace' it with a small one-time payment.
You can argue that bringing these people into the 'civilized' fold is better for them, that they will be happier earning their bread by the sweat of their brows, rather than just gathering what the jungle and its rivers provide in abundance. However, I'd argue that what this technologically advanced civilization is taking away (abundant food and building materials forever) is not being fairly paid for.
BTW, I appreciate everyone's contribution here; I was hoping to spur some debate and provide some food for thought."
(Bill Christensen 7/20/2008 5:23:45 PM)
|"I'll concede most of that last, since the reason I posted in the first place was because of the way you had worded the article here. I don't know what's really going on over there, so I don't know how much of what they are being reported to have argued is true, how much is wrong, (for the purpose of gain, as in the case here in the US with suing everything) and how much is merely insufficiently thought out. If you look at what is reported, and what is shown on the videos, you can see that they are a lot more dependent on "modern tech," and its products, than they seem to be admitting. (try making clothing by hand, and see how much time you have left over to gather food the hard way... It may be fun, and I enjoy it sometimes, but that's only if you've got a choice, and can "come back to civilization" when you don't manage to provide enough "necessities" for your comfort) The argument that they are not dependent on "high tech" for their lifestyle, is nearly identical to the standard American argument that the Space Program didn't have anything to do with their current lifestyle. And, on that note, I'm not in favor of mining on Earth, (except to annoy all those hypocritical "environmentalists") as it is much more worthwhile to mine asteroids. (and, the tech does exist, as things like the AsterAnts plan showed)
PS: For the anonymous poster: There were a couple groups of "natives" who were living on some of the Islands out there, and, by law which they had requested, they were not to be interfered with by outsiders. The Tsunami wiped out the majority of their population, (since the Islands were low enough that they got completely swamped) and, what few of them survived that, (a couple small groups on a couple of the Islands) were without supplies, food, or shelter. To make matters worse, their sources of food had also been removed, (plant life was scoured from the faces of the Islands when the waves went over them, and the living fish left for a while because of what was left behind) and, in all the debris that was left, the corpses of all the dead fish, animals, and people, were festering and causing disease. They finally gave up their stubbornness, and asked for outside aid. A high tech society may not _like_ surviving after a similarly TEOTWAKI event, but for those that know how, it would provide more chance, and require a much more powerful event to produce such devastating conditions for a major proportion of our populace."
(Ashley 7/20/2008 6:58:48 PM)
|"Ashley: What's your problem, you're not even talking about the article as written, which clearly states that the locals don't want the god-damned mining company taking over. Your huge posts are just graffiti, and unless you've made a career out of researching these things you can't possibly know what the majority of primitive peoples do or want or what tends to outweigh anything else."
(another walking pile of opinions 7/23/2008 7:11:32 AM)
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